Creative Ways for Marketers to Get That Ah-Ha Moment with Customers

Eric Eden: 1:00

Welcome to today's episode. Our guest is Mark Stinson. He comes to us from Boise, idaho. He is a brand innovator. He has authored six business books, which we'll talk a little bit about, and he is a creative consultant and president of his own branding firm, and we'll talk a little bit about that as well. He has his own podcast called the World of Creativity. Welcome to the show, mark.

Mark Stinson: 1:31

It's great to be with you, Eric. You've got a nice show. I love the variety of creative people you get to talk to and just write in the title. It's remarkable marketing. I love that.

Eric Eden: 1:44

I love talking to people who aspire to be remarkable as compared to people who aspire to be mediocre.

Mark Stinson: 1:49

Let's not bring mediocrity.

Eric Eden: 1:52

Thanks for making some time today and, as a brand innovator, I think you have a great, remarkable story for us that you can share about some of the marketing you're most proud of.

Mark Stinson: 2:05

Certainly and I think these two words together maybe begin our conversation and that is the brand innovation. People want to come up with new ideas and obviously product managers and new product development people inside of companies everywhere want to develop the next cool thing and then brand it, own it, leverage it, name it, expand it, logo ties it and so forth. And I think that combination of two things. And people always ask creative people where do you come up with your ideas? How do you find these new innovations when you're out in the world looking for it? And I think that observation and that listening, and so when you ask about a case study, I'm proud of it's really that listening. I always found, in my career anyway, that great ideas came from the customer, not people sitting around in the conference room, paper, in the walls with flip charts and post-it notes, but rather, if you listened hard enough to the customer, you would find out what their needs are, what their desires are, what they're trying to do, how they'd like to improve their life, and then that's where the ideas really live. So I try to develop listening techniques, listening through listening, as a way of getting to some of those ideas.

Eric Eden: 3:22

Interesting. So you're saying that the best ideas don't come from coffee like triple espresso, but listening to the customer?

Mark Stinson: 3:31

Sometimes you've got to be awake to listen. So I'm always about coffee, don't worry about that. But definitely. And so to develop these, not just to say, oh, we went out, we talked to certain customers you hear that all the time I took a visit and I went to customers, white visits and we did focus groups and all these kinds of things. But if you really developed not only the venue but also the techniques where you could do some really creative listening and story development and idea development with the customers, you came up with some pretty good ideas. And sometimes that did involve showing them a prototype or showing them a user experience and getting their feedback on it, but most of the time it was co-creation, co-development. And I guess, to drill down on, one of those techniques was called group revolutions and I branded it in of eight because there were eight people in the twist on the word innovate. But in a great group revolution we had four doctors, for example, and four patients, and then we talked to the doctors first and then we put them aside and then talk to the patients, and then here's the novel part we brought the doctors and the patients together in a group of eight. Now, it wasn't their doctor and these weren't their patients. But I'm just saying these are the people that were dealing with the condition and their medical condition, and then doctors who were actually trying to treat the condition, to listen to the patients in a totally different environment. When patients got to speak up, how many times you've been to the doctor you don't get a word in edgewise? And how many times did the doctor say they didn't ask me any questions and they didn't tell me much about their daily life? Because we only had seven minutes together here in a focus group setting of half hour and a half long, you really get into a deeper conversation and then, as the facilitator, I'm there to listen, I'm there to prompt, I'm there to capture the aha moments. And so when you say what was a remarkable marketing case study, I always thought it was remarkable, the big aha's that you got when customers came together.

Eric Eden: 5:45

So there is an art of listening. It's not just hey, I want to talk to the customers. There is a science, if you will, to how you do it. You mentioned the venue, you mentioned the format, the length, how you facilitated. It seems like there's a number of variables there that someone could mess up if they weren't doing it right.

Mark Stinson: 6:07

Yeah, and some of it comes from it's right or wrong, but maybe variables of greatness. So you take a typical conference room. You get the square rectangle table. You got the chairs all around. Sometimes there's a hierarchy to who sat where, sometimes poor lighting, poor conditions. But, for example, in one of these N of 8 groups I described, we set the focus group up as a living room, not a conference room, and so it really took down the barriers. You weren't in the doctor's office, you were more in a living room, in a coffee shop. There were low, comfortable chairs, there were lamps instead of fluorescent lights, people could still take notes, but it wasn't a formal meeting. So at the end of the day, the barriers to the exchange were way down. And that's an example. And then, just as a facilitator, again, how many focus groups are advisory boards? You're sitting at the front of the table. There's guiding or captaining the whole group. No, in this case you're one of them and you have a listening guide. You're not selling, but you want to know what do they know and how do they feel, and what are they doing today in a whole different kind of dialogue.

Eric Eden: 7:22

There must be something to that. I think I go immediately thinking to the psychiatrist office setting, which is more like a living room setting, when you're sitting in a comfortable chair and they're sitting there in a more relaxed, informal style, which is not a conference from table, and they're like I'm listening.

Mark Stinson: 7:41

And every now and then, as a facilitator, I caught myself going and how did that make you feel? So you're stealing a little bit from psychology, but you did want to drill deeper in this. What does that mean? And certainly, for example, we had a group like this for caregivers of patients with Alzheimer's, and obviously we were talking about their experience as a caregiver, not as the patient themselves, necessarily, but you really had to get into those activities of daily living and how did that impact them, their family, their jobs? So there was a lot to listen for and very emotional sometimes. So you have to push through that a little bit.

Eric Eden: 8:25

And so one of the other things that's interesting is talking to customers one-on-one, versus a setting like this where you picked a group size of N of eight people, like you said. So the interesting thing is what is the science beyond picking eight? You said four doctors, four patients, one. Sometimes would worry if you get feedback in a group setting that people jump on the bandwagon or you get some sort of skewed results. There must have been some science or reason. You chose eight.

Mark Stinson: 8:58

Yes, and some of that is practical. You don't want to hear just two people and say they all agreed and everybody was great. And again, sometimes I've seen these focus groups or advisory boards that get to be 20 people, for example, and it's just unwieldy and you have too many people. There's a great book out there called Dominators, wallflowers and something else anyway, the Wallflower Effect. You do not want somebody who doesn't contribute at all or cynical I'm here to just prove myself and they start posturing and they just want to be the great disagreeer. So somewhere in the middle and I just found eight is a great magic number. Now can I do it with? Six Is nine, okay, yeah, but it's eight and that is. You get a range of thoughts, you get some diversity in backgrounds and experiences and you're allowing enough time where everybody can play. And it doesn't feel so bad if Eric's not talking for a little while and I call you out. You don't feel like all of a sudden I have the spotlight. So it's a small enough group to have a group dialogue and it's big enough to get, like I said, those diversity of experiences and backgrounds.

Eric Eden: 10:11

And so was there anything else about the listening technique wise that made the difference beyond having just a normal one-on-one conversation with a customer that you would call out? That really helps you get the insights you needed.

Mark Stinson: 10:27

Yes, I must say I can list so many times when a true light bulb moment would go off and the clients who are observing behind the class, the one-way mirror they're observing this, would say this never has come up in any of our meetings. We never thought about this. This is truly a real-world customer idea and this in my field, in medical marketing. This has come up, for example, in how you could package the product or what pill size it should be. Then there was a client who was developing a new injectable method and the customer said this has to fit in our machine for pain medications in the hospital and it looks like a vending machine. It's like a Coke machine or a candy machine and if you don't have it, a certain size, width, depth. All of that has to come into play and the practicality of that idea was just like you're slapping yourself on the side of the head going. We almost made it too big. We almost put the pill in a shrink wrap that would have been too hard for the patients to carry or to what would be the word like too obvious. Patient wants to be discreet with their medications. They have to take it with them to work or to lunch or they take it with meals, but if the packaging is too loud, then there's outed with their medication. And who wanted that? So many of these times the real world experience came out in these discussions.

Eric Eden: 12:09

So are there certain things you had to do in these focus groups of A people to get to these aha moments?

Mark Stinson: 12:16

Sure, and it's interesting you say all the considerations and logistics. We did one of these groups with people who had a like a food allergy I'll call it is the simplest way to put it. But where they're esophagus would have an allergic reaction and close up and make it hard to breathe. If somebody hadn't thought what kind of food are we? Are snacks are we going to serve at this focus group, you almost again would have had, would have been a disastrous slap on the head moment. And so somebody said we can't have food with these ingredients or we better ask people. So that it all started before they even showed up in the room that we had to show the consideration and the awareness to be able to ask the questions. But then I think to set the stage that this was going to be a true dialogue, for example in my case study with the doctors and the patients, to say to the doctors you cannot act holier than thou in this room. There's not going to be that kind of I'm the almighty doctor. And then you can say to the patient maybe you've never had a chance to ask a real doctor this question in a safe, comfortable, equal footing environment. And so just that alone began to open things up.

Eric Eden: 13:39

Interesting. So what was the impact of doing focus group sessions like this? Was it highly impactful for businesses? And you said you gave some examples of doing this in the medical, in the medical space, but I believe from your experience you've worked across industries too.

Mark Stinson: 13:58

Yes, now, all sorts of mainly in health and science and technology. I can't say that this is going to work for a burger franchise. I can't say it's going to work with a chewing gum brand, but I still believe that it could. In other words, if you had the meeting of the minds that we're talking about and I just talk about these aha moments where and even the cover of the book innovate has a light bulb on it. It's kind of cliche, but that's literally how we felt that the light bulbs came on. They were illuminating new ideas. But then this idea, the symbol of an aha moment, is often the light bulb, where you say I just never would have put light on that idea had I not heard it in this way.

Eric Eden: 14:43

And just getting to those aha moments often determine the success or failure of products and services.

Mark Stinson: 14:52

Absolutely, and that's why I think about when I go back to the idea of brands. For example, we worked with a health foundation and it not only helped their brand when we came up with a new tagline and a new logo, but it really framed the whole advocacy of this organization differently. Instead of being the kind of, oh poor me, I have this condition, it became an empowerment. No, you have to tell people with this condition, you can do it Now, we can help, but you can do it. So stop being woe is me. And yes, we have empathy for these people. But this is not a sad moment, it's a we heard you and we want to help you. So it really turned the whole organization's attitude around.

Eric Eden: 15:43

So if we were having a cup of coffee and I said what is the main thing from your book? Innovate. Which people should read the whole book, but go ahead and give us the quick 30 minute summary. If, what did you learn from doing these methods of better listening from customers? What would you say is the main takeaway, or how you would describe that to people?

Mark Stinson: 16:13

I would have to use the same tool. I recommended them. Oftentimes, when you talk about a tool or a technique or a marketing program of any kind, you do have to get down to what it is, what it does, how you use it. We've talked a little bit about that. But then you say how is this different? How is that difference meaningful? Then? How is it relevant to your operation? Maybe, if you want me to sum it up, it's different because it's not a one-way Q&A, back and forth tennis match of questions that oftentimes you see in surveys and questionnaires and the user experience surveys or even in focus groups where you're literally reading down your list of questions. This is different because it is a two-way dialogue with a big enough group, diverse enough experiences. Now, that's meaningful to the marketing team because you're going to get ideas at a totally different level of experience and totally different level of ability that you can apply these ideas because they have come from real-world customers. Then, finally, I think it's relevant to a marketing development, whether it's an agency or a market research firm, because it does differentiate your way of marketing To really say we market by listening. It's not our fancy sending techniques, but our gathering, our listening techniques. That's how I would sum it up.

Eric Eden: 17:47

That's awesome. Let's talk a little bit about brand innovation, because I'm very interested in branding both for companies, but also for people. In terms of personal branding, I think you've done some work in both areas. You have your podcast called the World of Creativity and you have a book with a similar title. Talk to us a little bit about how you think about branding for companies and personal branding for executives.

Mark Stinson: 18:24

Yes, as it turns out, maybe I didn't start it this way, but I have refined it this way your World of Creativity as a podcast, as a book, and there'll be a website and a brand. There's a lot of e-books that I've put out now under this World of Creativity branding. What I found is it became my personal brand that the World of Creativity had two meanings. It was a big, wide world out there. There's a lot of creative ideas. I went out looking for them. Who has great ideas in music? As it turns out, it's great to write a song, but if you want the song on Spotify and if you want the song on the radio and if you want the song on the iTunes playlist, there's a lot more to your brand of that creative marketing. I really use that as not only my way of gathering those ideas, but the brand experience, which is so important these days because a lot of brands look alike and sound alike and feel alike, but the experience of the brand. We've been talking about going out and getting coffee. We'd have a whole discussion about where we went for that coffee, depending on what experience we wanted around the coffee. Building the brand experience has been something I've spent more time on For people to be able to take. What is it about working with you? Your personal brand, your business, maybe a consultancy, maybe a manufacturer? What is it like to work with you? Try to bottle that, package that and use that as a brand element not just the features and benefits of your product, but the experience of your brand. That's what I've been trying to build.

Eric Eden: 20:06

That's fantastic. What advice would you give marketers? Our listeners are largely marketers across different industries. What advice would you give them about branding for their company and for their personal brand?

Mark Stinson: 20:24

Yes, boy, I tell you, after all that we've talked about how could I not say listen? I think the first thing I would say is, both physically and metaphysically, get up and get out. You can use Zoom if you like, you can use the phone if you want. You can use emails if you want. You could get on a plane and fly someplace. All of those are better than that's sitting in your office Reading another marketing book and look, I've published them. Eight ways to do this and six ways to do that. Don't do the flavor of the month book. Hey, you can gather ideas, but the place to be is with the customer, and maybe you go stand at the store, maybe you listen into sales calls with your reps, but do something that is interacting with the customer and I guarantee you'll get a lot more than the six ways and the eight ways that way.

Eric Eden: 21:23

That's awesome, and your other advice that you shared earlier is put some real thought into how you talk to the customers to get the best feedback. So think about the environment, how many of them are in the room at the same time, how you're gonna facilitate it, what would make them comfortable to share ideas that you won't get, because I am often on the end of receiving the short 100 question surveys that you mentioned that only take an hour and a half to fill out.

Mark Stinson: 21:58

Yeah, and when science has already told us, the number one thing is if you ask them, how was your experience, would you recommend it to a friend? One, two questions Science has shown us as the best indicator of how their experience was. But yeah, there's no question, we can all do a better job of that. And if we just think about our own experience of listening versus sending, if you got an email today that started out just following up to see if you've got my email and I'm sending it again to make sure it floated to the top of your inbox, Does that sound like customer listening to you? No, it's annoying and it's anything but customer friendly.

Eric Eden: 22:45

All right. Thank you for sharing all this great advice with us today. I would encourage everyone listening to share this episode with your friends. People need to know how to listen better, like Mark has suggested. Also, please rate, review and subscribe to this podcast for us so we can keep having great guests like Mark. Mark, thanks so much for spending time with us today and sharing these great ideas.

Mark Stinson: 23:08

You bet, and I know it's necessary. But listeners really, Eric, means it rate, review and share. It really does help podcasters, doesn't it Eric?

Eric Eden: 23:19

It does and we appreciate it. Yes, thank you. Thank you very much.